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Author Topic: SBF Hemi Heads  (Read 14214 times)
xafalcongs
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« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2012, 11:56:59 PM »

Speaking of SOHC's, in 1984 I was a stupid 16yr old and didn't know any better.....I was offered a formerly drag raced 427 SOHC for $1K.  I didn't want it cause I didn't know what I would do with it.  Damn thing still ran but had sat for 7-8yrs.  Oh well, what do you do?
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Kazoom
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2012, 12:08:03 AM »

I agree with you about the 427 cammer  :punk: , they had a interesting diffrent head version made that I have not been able to find much info on.



Thanks for saying that Brian, sometimes I wonder what the hell is going on with some of these guys on some forums, its as if I am in the twilight zone. Some of these 2v guys just go total ape shat with negativity about multi valve tech. You are right, thats the guy (Ty). I dont know all the details but I understand most got something out of him. I feel bad for his victims as I have been there but it makes me happy to see a out of country foreigner was able to get him arrested because of the laws down there.

The 4 valve dohc design could may well be the ultimate example for multi valve tech, especially for very high rpm performance (Mihovetz is a good example) but I wanted to get into the pushrod version of this tech because of what mr Feuling (RIP) was doing with his 4v pushrod tech (and because pushrod engines are not going away anytime soon). I know Feuling prefered 3 valve setups in some high perf/race apps I think depending on the fuels used. I heard he was talking about also making a 3 valve version of his 4 valve HD head before he lost interest in all of it and sold some patents. I know mr Benjamin has also made a trick billet 3 HD head. I just think the curent hemi designs would be easyer/simpler to mod to a 3v. Some 2v guys just want to argue about there port flow all the time but the real trick to the multi valve is in the curtain flow area which can help the low/mid range torque curve over a 2v.

I dont have all the details about both engines in this vid but this is a 4 valve pushrod Vtwin record holder (green one/overkill racing) going up against a 2 valve pushrod Vtwin counter part, you can see the 4V Feuling head logo on the top corner of the rocker box, you can even see the 2v bike caught the 4v guy sleeping at the light,

http://www.streetfire.net/video/overkill-racing-sanddrags361-at104-mph-142-in_107753.htm


Here is a link of Feulings 90's prototype race heads I have, he had some interesting tricks going on with these 4v heads years back.
http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?p=2801255#post2801255

He also tested a mod version of this same 4v hd head on a 135ci 4cyl vw dyno test engine and he got the bloody thing to make over 400hp with them.
http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?topic=10891.0

the newer Guzzi Griso 8V pushrod head design is also very simular to Feulings 4v pushrod head design.
http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/2008-moto-guzzi-griso-8v-68608.html

head pics
http://cwpg.blogspot.com/2009/09/guzzi-4-valve-head.html

« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 03:16:58 AM by Kazoom » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2012, 12:00:20 PM »

   The "Caliope" was based on the "lima (429-460) " block not the FE. It was called a 427 due to the 7ltr max ci limit.
    3 valve heads provide enough intake volume (the tough part) and the single exhaust valve is good enough to keep up.
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rmcomprandy
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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2012, 03:30:14 PM »

   Man Kazoom I thought "I" had seen it all. The Globe conversion is a "new/old" one on me. Looks like a take off of the Cosworth designed Lotus Cortina head. BTW the '68 ish Hot Rod cover that showed a group of Ford experimental engines. The "hemi" looking small block was a non running wooden mock up. Latwer Ford Motorsports catalogs showed an "under developement" pushrod activated 32 valve conversion. Only one survives in a Michigan based roadster. Ford dropped the program due to costs and durability issues according to Mose Nowlan , head of Ford Engine Engineering.
    Randy

I have built two of them myself and I know there are at least the components for 3 complete engines.
Yes ... Angelo owns them. I think he sold the last one built.
That engine was an original Ford Motor Company design which was dropped by the parent Ford Motor Company by the Jack Nasser people.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 03:39:17 PM by rmcomprandy » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2012, 03:38:04 PM »

Just this past October at the Engine Masters Competition there was a small block 351W based 427 Ford "hemi" Shelby engine competing; like one which started this thread.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 03:42:19 PM by rmcomprandy » Logged
www.rmcompetition.com

The finest in Custom Engine Building for all venues ...!
1(586)909-1591 ... fax 1(586)771-2930
Selling Parts & Supplies from companies I use.
Kazoom
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« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2012, 05:02:42 PM »

Thanks for the great info guys. One of the things I have been interested to find more out about the Caliope was about its exh valve setup as I am not sure but it looks like the exh valve is straight down the same way as the 32v weslake heads???, When I was looking for info on valve angles on multi valve deals I seen this type of design is still being used today and is also what the dominion/arao heads have.



I am wondering rmcomprandy, do you think that person would be willing to sell a set of those heads?, I am interested. Looks like if it was not for nassers cost cutting we might of had those ford heads out there years ago?. Wonder if it was a more simular deal to what happened to the 32V Olds W43 stuff that never was?

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/the-w43-oldsmobiles-dohc-455-v8-that-never-was/
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 05:09:53 PM by Kazoom » Logged
Brian S
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« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2012, 06:45:39 PM »

I've been checking out some of the bike links posted. By coincidence I happen to own a '99 Buell S3 but haven't ridden it in a few years due to some electrical problems.

Did you ever talk to SchmidtMotorWorks on Speedtalk about designing pushrod multi valve heads? I think these were one of his CAD drawings.


Speaking of SOHC's, in 1984 I was a stupid 16yr old and didn't know any better.....I was offered a formerly drag raced 427 SOHC for $1K.  I didn't want it cause I didn't know what I would do with it.  Damn thing still ran but had sat for 7-8yrs.  Oh well, what do you do?

OMG... $1000? That's insane!! I saw one for sale like 20 years ago and it was $23K.
A couple comparison pics to show why the new 6.2L Raptor reminds me so much of the old Cammer.


Looks like a twisted, quench hemi with two spark plugs per cylinder.

Compared to the true hemi chamber on the 427.


Just this past October at the Engine Masters Competition there was a small block 351W based 427 Ford "hemi" Shelby engine competing; like one which started this thread.

Do you remember what class it ran in and did it finish?

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Kazoom
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« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2012, 08:28:48 PM »

Hey, I was looking at getting the S3 at first too but then got X1's, a 00 and 01. I have not ridden them that much either lately but really happy with there performance, factory "race kits" lol on both, got stage3 xb nrhs heads with bolt on big bore and se cams on the 01. Had plans for a new 90" feuling 4 valve deal for the 00.

I posted on the one arao thread there and have seen what he was doing, really knows his stuff, his layout reminds me of the 32V thunder power heads. To one day cut out/make my own pair of 4v heads would be the most ultimate thing I could do in this hobby, had planned with a friend in the past to do this (copying Olds design), just did not work out back then and was cheaper just to buy the dominion heads. Maybe one day I will find a good bridgeport machine to try it myself :scared:.

I got the EM mag with the shelby hemi in extreme street, 609.0 peak tq, 747.9 hp. BES won it with Edel/Glidd heads, 729.6 peak tq, 912.6 peak hp. CRAZY crazy cams/valvetrains in those deals... "extreme street"... I really dont know about that :scared:

« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 08:46:51 PM by Kazoom » Logged
Brian S
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« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2012, 09:36:50 PM »


I posted on the one arao thread there and have seen what he was doing, really knows his stuff, his layout reminds me of the 32V thunder power heads.

Some alternate threads where Arao heads and multi valved heads were mentioned.
 http://speedtalk.com/forum/search.php?keywords=arao&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Arao Cleveland heads
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1585&hilit=arao

Design Review 4Valve Pushrod Layout
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5347&hilit=arao

Application for a 4-valve Big Block?
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1572&hilit=arao

3 Valve Head
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3608&hilit=arao

32 Valve 427 ZO6 Supercar Engine
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2611&hilit=arao

Cylinder head Design
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2165&hilit=arao

How come so little development of 4V heads for existing V8's
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1155&hilit=arao

Vizard's polyquad.. valve size theorization....
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28614&hilit=arao
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 05:59:12 PM by Brian S » Logged
Kazoom
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« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2012, 04:49:23 PM »

I checked them out, I missed some of those old threads, interesting stuff. I got a mustang to refinish first for my old 671 C, then I will get back to farting around with the 32v stuff. Its been lots of fun learning about all the multi valve pushrod stuff.
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Brian S
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« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2012, 07:37:18 PM »

I meant to label those links for easier reference. Lot's of creative thinkers on Speed Talk but like every forum there's someone making the claim that 2 valve heads can be just as good as 4 valves. If the debate centers around HP per dollar the two valve heads usually win because there are definitely cheaper and easier ways to increase power.

There was a thread about Vizard's poly quad so I went back and reread his article about some of the short comings of 4 valve vs 2 valve heads.
PolyQuad Revealed - is it the future of four valve heads?
http://www.motortecmagazine.net/article.asp?AID=1&AP=1

Poly Quad Revisited by Mike Holler
http://www.allpar.com/fix/holler/polyquad.html

For the most part, we haven't seen a lot of 4 valve applications for trucks where a lot of low rpm torque is needed but it looks like they are using some of Vizard's theory with asymmetrical ports on Diesel engines now.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/08/first-look-fords-new-6-7-liter-v-8-scorpion-power-stroke-diesel-engine.html


The new Mustang GT may not have gone the asymmetrical way but they compensated with larger displacement, VVT and wider gear spacing. I noticed the manual trans now has a 3.66 first gear and 4.17 for the new 6 speed auto.

For my application, I'm sure that near 500ci and a 4-1/2 stroke will more than make up for any low end power loss in a symmetrical 2 valve intake port like Arao. The $6500 price makes them more appealing but it will come down to whether they're actually available.....or just a pipe dream.
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Kazoom
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« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2012, 04:44:16 PM »

Yes, on some forums I see some guys just want to complain about the (to high for them) cost, but really the avg $6000+ price is reasonable for such a custom part when you compare it to ANY of the other 2V billet and custom head offerings as none of these heads are high production items. I seen the poly quad stuff a while back to help with swirl. Feuling on his heads was inducing swirl with biased intake port openings, combustion chamber biasing and using diffrent lash settings with his valve adjuster foot all helping for swirl. On some forums you see some guys saying you need high rpms for multi valve heads to work but all the low rpm multi valve pushrod diesel stuff out now is a good example of how the multi valve design can offer more low/mid rpm torque. Its kind of funny to me everytime I see locomotive trains pulling a few street blocks long of cargo as they also use the 4 valve tech.

Wow a 500ci is a big mother sbf, would definatly be trick with 32v heads. Have you ever talked to russ?, I have spoke with him a good few times on the phone for tech/ideas, seemed decent enough to me... but you know. I think one of the issues with this guy is some people dont seem to understand they are Not dealing with a summit/jegs/edelbrock company. This guy is just a small one man band show working out of a small shop. I know there is some truth for sure to the problems posted online but the little I have delt with him I have had no issues. I do know I would love to own those "one off" heads he made for that kevin gal guy.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 04:46:58 PM by Kazoom » Logged
Brian S
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« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2012, 08:44:24 PM »

My problem with the Araos was mainly about availability. Although when the prices had more than doubled seemingly overnight, I had to question whether I was financing someone's R & D or worst case scenario...an illicit drug habit. Essentially my procrastinating plan has been to build an engine around a rare, expensive Sonny Bryant crankshaft I bought from Roush many years ago.

It was designed to fit a 400 block and after reading about McKeown's new Cleveland block announcement and the possibility of custom order deck heights, it's peaked my interest again. I haven't talked to Mark or Russ yet. If I can get the bore out to 4.187 with the 4.5 stroke I can get 499 ci, as these dimensions happen to be identical to a top fuel engine.

I do know I would love to own those "one off" heads he made for that kevin gal guy.

I don't recall what was different about them other than they were made for 6 bolts per cylinder.
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Kazoom
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« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2012, 01:32:20 AM »

With all the bs on the net who knows whats going on there, the drug thing even crossed my mind, I think some of the truth is he does operate on a shoe string budget, he aint getting rich from making these heads as they are a pile of work to make. What he did say to me about the criticism "theres nothing off the self about these things, I got to make everything from scratch or farm it out". I think if work comes in for him to pay the bills I think then his heads got to wait but who knows what the rest of the story is with him. With all the bs out there now, the only way I myself would want to deal with him with big $ dollar stuff is face to face... or better yet make these heads myself. I understand these first time/one off cleveland heads he made were a high port design with other tricks simular to his bbc ones?.

Thats a unique crank you got there, will make for a real trick build with custom heads.  Would it not also be possible to fit that crank in a raised cam W block?, might be another option?. It might be worth calling DB industrys since hes got a web site up now to see if he would make a set of his 3 valve heads for a ford?.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 01:37:25 AM by Kazoom » Logged
Kazoom
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« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2012, 11:24:25 PM »

Found another pic of the avenger sbf hemi heads. I love how clean/smooth the intake looks, no ugly welds, imo.



I even found a pic of Fords old sbf sohc 289 heads. Neat stuff. :punk:

« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 11:38:24 PM by Kazoom » Logged
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