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Author Topic: SBF Hemi Heads  (Read 9622 times)
Brian S
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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2012, 05:21:45 PM »

The other thing that seemed to get lost because of all the bs out there is most guys did not understand there were 2 diffrent companys/supplyers for these heads in cali for a while as there was some type of business split up by diffrent groups at arao, The Dominion company came after Arao, not before as some think.

That's the impression I had as well. I first heard about the Dominion heads in the early 90s from magazine ads. I remember them saying the combustion chamber shape was the same on both the Ford and Chevy head. The price IIRC was something like $3500.

A few years after that I read somewhere Arao bought the patterns from Dominion and had expanded their offerings to BBCs and then Clevelands. Prices were closer to $5K for heads, and a few years later, almost overnight it seemed the price jumped to $12K. I never saw anyone who had a set of 32V Cleveland port heads, let alone any dyno results.

There was a guy from Australia who was bouncing from one forum to the next, saying he payed Arao in full for a set of heads, and 2-1/2 years later still got nothing. Most people still say they are vaporware. I have interest in a set, but I'm not going to hand anyone $12K with that kind of reputation.

On another subject, the billet hemi heads from the GT40s.com website were made by someone named Chuck Hebestreit from Thor Motorsports in Arizona. From a 4 year old post.
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/thor-motorsports-twm-induction/88053-billet-aluminum-hemi-heads-sb-ford-sb-chevy-2.html

Quote from the head designer/builder Chuck Hebestreit
" It needs to be explained that these port are a maximum effort type head. While they are to some a large port, they are small compared to others. The velocity can be somewhat controlled by camshaft profile. Having owned Howards cams for years in the past, I understand head/port/cam/manifold interactions fairly well. All that being said, the velocity it better in this head than that of the 351 Cleveland and Boss 302. Without going into theory and fluid dynamics, the entry cross section of the port is smaller than the previous mentioned heads. At some point there will no doubt be several people holding and testing these heads to confirm everything I claim. When the exact figures are know, I will get them out and the measuring can begin. The 400 cfm is at .800 valve lift which is also not a street friendly number. In respect to numbers, the cam manufactures agreed to use .050 lifter rise as a published value for their cams so that people could compare mfg. to mfg. It seems for most "true" high performance heads, .800 lift is a fair figure to compare. While NHRA Pro Stock engines use even greater valve lift, there is not much need for a valve lift of .800. The hemispherical chamber allows for great low lift flow and less turbulence. Turbulence can affect flow velocity in a very negative way.

I have driven my ProMod on the street here in Flagstaff and once ran the Top Fuel Dragster on the streets of Long Beach California, but I don't consider those as street driven cars.

I will make smaller port versions available if needed, but those heads would be simply jewelry.

Of course a larger displacement would be beneficial. The test engine is 347 cubic inches. 4.125 bore x 3.25 stroke. All the real world data that I give will be from this engine. I am using a new generation Boss 302 block. I can't speak to all of the blocks made so far but I will say the one I have is absolutely beautiful. I am partial to the Boss 302 because I set my first Land Speed records many years ago with a Boss 302 in a Pantera at El Mirage dry lake. We set a record every time we unloaded that car for 2 years running. I believe one of those records still stands 20 years later! If someone breaks it I will dust off the Pantera and go get it back!"


Anyway, if you're wondering where I got the $20K figure for the Avenger Hemis, it was here.
http://www.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-22796.html

Mr Black
January 20th, 2005, 03:56 PM
Anyone ever heard of these?


Avenger Hemi Heads
This is it. The absolute biggest and best heads available today. Our own Hemi design. Not for the faint of heart.


Assembled440/320 CFM$19999.00
Includes Valve Covers and Custom Rocker Arms

http://www.f-p-s.com/images/heads/DSCF0005.jpg


http://www.f-p-s.com/images/heads/DSCF0009.jpg

http://www.f-p-s.com/cylinder_heads.html

Oh, and can someone explain "canted" valves to me? Also, I noticed the monster flow rates on the previous page being quoted at like 0.900" lift....what kinds of cars/classes would run that kind of lift?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 11:16:17 PM by Brian S » Logged
161854
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« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2012, 09:53:59 PM »

   Man Kazoom I thought "I" had seen it all. The Globe conversion is a "new/old" one on me. Looks like a take off of the Cosworth designed Lotus Cortina head. BTW the '68 ish Hot Rod cover that showed a group of Ford experimental engines. The "hemi" looking small block was a non running wooden mock up. Latwer Ford Motorsports catalogs showed an "under developement" pushrod activated 32 valve conversion. Only one survives in a Michigan based roadster. Ford dropped the program due to costs and durability issues according to Mose Nowlan , head of Ford Engine Engineering.
    Randy
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FordRacing250
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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2012, 11:03:27 PM »



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161854
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2012, 08:39:03 AM »

   That's it Tim!
         The only surviving "working" engine went into Angelo Giampetroni's (formerly 1/2 of the famous Gratiot Automotive in Mi) 32 Ford street rod. Angelo worked for Ford Racing and "tested" the engine for them. It's obvious by your pictures this was a complex design. The engine pictured was one that failed according to John Vermeersch.
     Randy
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 10:56:42 AM by 161854 » Logged
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FordRacing250
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 05:56:15 PM »

I cant take the credit for the pics... I barrowed them from Ben Alameda. I believe they were taken at PRI years ago.
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Kazoom
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« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2012, 07:41:44 PM »

Hi Brian, I dont know all the details either but I know Hal was still dealing with Dominion perf parts/heads up till about mid 05 when he got sick and I think slowed down/finished up with what he was doing. I understand the split from arao starting up dominion was carlsons own deal not araos, I heard there was problems/fighting over this that and the other between these two groups for a while but Hal kept on farting around with the 32v stuff out of his home based business and kept his prices lower than araos, ($3500 and up) probalby because of lower overhead. Hal just passed away early last year so the dominion perf versions/parts are not avalable now, a friend of hals also told me he got the last two sets of dominion heads last year when hal passed away so apprantly he still had this stuff up untill recently.

So now theres only arao out there which I would be Very carefull/leary dealing with (escrow account only) as im sure you have seen all the bs about him out there. I have tryed to contact that kevin gal guy all over the forums he spamed to try and offer help and find out what was going on but he never did reply to any of my many emails/pm's so something is fishy with that guy. I called arao to find out whats up and he told me yes he had componet/time problems with his "one off" custom heads but he did ship them and he got them so that whole arao thing seems really screwy. I think the best/only way to deal with arao is if you where close enough to drive there regularly to see whats up. He did say he got his parts supply (rocker?) problems sorted out and I noticed he lowered his prices back down on the ford heads.

I like the avenger hemi heads but that price if correct is really up there, that other hemi one is really neat too. Myself though I am more interested in the multi valve pushrod stuff.

I forgot to mention that most dont know the dominion and arao version heads were modeled after the old weslake 32v heads, just with there own take for using standard int's and exh setups.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29048&p=339990#p339990


« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 08:44:17 PM by Kazoom » Logged
Kazoom
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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 08:14:52 PM »

Ok so I did not know ford themselfs were messing with a 4 valve pushrod heads back in 68?, very neat!, maybe I am getting things mixxed up here but those pics are of the early 5.0 1990's pushrod heads ford designed with new mustang? type fi intake system at the same time as the mod engines that I mentioned earlyer. Those are the ones I would like to find that I thought were in the early fms catalog for a limited time. The int port design on those reminds me of Feulings int ports which had diffrent width int ports to help with swirl. Those factory ford heads are simular in valvetrain setup to the 32v Thunder power heads. I think the pushrod setup/layout is also basicly the same deal as the 2v arias hemi. The shaft design is very stable for high rpm.

http://www.valleyhead.com/thunder.html


and a bit simular to the newer prototype multi valve pushrod GM heads.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 08:34:30 PM by Kazoom » Logged
FordRacing250
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« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2012, 09:02:23 PM »

A few more pics

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« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2012, 11:04:53 AM »

   kazoom ,
   The engine on the Hot Rod cover (along with the "Caliope" and SOHC 289 engines , was to be a 3 valve according to the text. Ford was doing a lot of off the wall stuff like "torsion bar valve springs" and desmodromic ( no springs at all) valve accuation. I have a lot of  "Experimental Engine" information in my "library" of Ford stuff.
     Randy
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Brian S
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« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2012, 04:50:30 PM »

So now theres only arao out there which I would be Very carefull/leary dealing with (escrow account only) as im sure you have seen all the bs about him out there. I have tryed to contact that kevin gal guy all over the forums he spamed to try and offer help and find out what was going on but he never did reply to any of my many emails/pm's so something is fishy with that guy. I called arao to find out whats up and he told me yes he had componet/time problems with his "one off" custom heads but he did ship them and he got them so that whole arao thing seems really screwy. I think the best/only way to deal with arao is if you where close enough to drive there regularly to see whats up. He did say he got his parts supply (rocker?) problems sorted out and I noticed he lowered his prices back down on the ford heads.

I like the avenger hemi heads but that price if correct is really up there, that other hemi one is really neat too. Myself though I am more interested in the multi valve pushrod stuff.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/feedback-buyers-sellers-vendors/24097-fraud-arao-engineering-inc-buyer-beware.html
Kevin Gall was only one of the Aussie guys complaining about getting screwed by Arao. There was also a John L and a Jerry Kahmann in that GT40s thread.
You're right though, I just looked at Arao and prices seemed to have gone from $5K to $12K and back down to $6500 now. Still, I don't live close enough to be driving by there regularly. I want a head that has great exhaust flow for a 500" blower motor. Whether it has one exhaust valve or two doesn't really matter to me as long as it's reliable.
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Kazoom
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« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2012, 06:57:13 PM »

Thanks for the info Randy, I just love to learn what was going on with the old stuff, imo there seemed to so much more interesting innovation in the past. I will be looking for that old mag now thanks, :thumbup:.

Hi Brian, I know there were problems at arao and so im not here sticking up for him. I have emailed that john L also, Something is also not right with that guy with the reply I got from him, suspect he is connected to kevin g in some way. Understand I wanted to help these guys get there money/parts back but from limited replys I got from this john(and never from kevin), all he's interested in is "humiliating arao" ...???. The other jerry guy just logged on and posted his bs right when I told the idiot running that site off... smells like fish to me lol.

I have experience with guys trying to screw me down there so I know I could have had guys arrested for fraud down there as I have spoken with some of the local cops down there about my situations and they/the local cops even went to talk to the guys I had problems with to get my stuff/money back. This is what does NOT make sence of that retarded gt40 site, these aussi guys want to rant on about how they got ripped by arao but NO one is talking about charging the guy or asking for anyones help to try and get there money back, this is retarded.  The fact is it was an AUSSI that got Ty Lofstrom  arrested for fraud and this was made easyer for him to do BECAUSE he was Not a american.

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/carbination-lounge/ty's-mugshot/

When I had problems I did not go ranting/spaming all over the net with one single time posts, I asked for HELP on the forums I was at and GOT help from good people down there and I got my stuff back. So my question is, if arao has been ripping off guys for 25+ years for hundreds of thousands, why has anyone not had him arrested with fraud?. The sad thing is I have seen this kind of one sided ranting shat posted about many diffrent guys/companys on auto forums but there is ALWAYS two side to every story... and then theres the truth.

btw, I am not in secret business with arao, nor am I arao posting as a canadian as suggested by some inbread retards on that gt40 or other auto sites. I am canadian and I live in canada, all I was interested in is helping out and getting to the truth.


getting back to some of the old stuff, that multi valve pushrod 427 Calliope prototype was definitely an interesting beast too.





« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 04:28:21 AM by Kazoom » Logged
Kazoom
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« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2012, 01:15:39 PM »

I keep thinking about the sbf hemi head pics here and then think about mr Benjamins heads, I know he made/tryed a few diffrent versions and cant help but think that a 3 valve hemi sbf design would just be so dam awesome. This one I believe could be made for a bbf deal.



« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 01:35:29 AM by Kazoom » Logged
Brian S
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« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2012, 06:02:21 PM »

I haven't come across any posts that would suggest you were anything but a neutral party. The internet being what it is, sometimes info is obscure, other times there's too much. I don't know why so many don't follow up their posts and/or promises. Often very difficult to sort through all the BS. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

I remember that name Ty Lofstrom...I think he was the guy who said he was going to buy a dozen or so Buttermore blocks. I heard he filed for Chapter 11 after his arrest and screwed people out of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I don't understand what's so awesome about a 3 valve or pushrods for that matter. Or are you just talking about it as a conversion head for our old iron?

Ford started out with a clean slate on the 6.2L modular that everyone thought was going to be the new Boss engine. There doesn't seem to be a lot of room for huge ports and valves. The 7.0L version was impressive to me considering it only had 2 valves but don't know the particulars about bore size or air flow numbers. Maybe they will be adding more valves as technology develops but I can't see them going back to a pushrod arrangement. Bore size and spacing is close to our old engines. I wouldn't mind seeing a SOHC conversion made from these components like they did with the 427 years ago. http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0908_ford_427_cammer_build/
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 06:04:23 PM by Brian S » Logged
Brian S
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« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2012, 06:02:59 PM »

double post
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FordRacing250
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« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2012, 06:18:12 PM »

Ive always thought the cammer 427 was a bad bad bad bitch since the first time I saw one in the early 90's. I would love to have one but they are big money. I remember Ford Power Parts when they were in Santa Fe Springs had a couple, even back then they were big money.
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