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Author Topic: Mixing or "Staggered" Rocker Ratios  (Read 1550 times)
Gimix
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« on: July 11, 2014, 04:21:58 AM »

  I'm always coming up with odd ball questions for myself when it comes to engine combinations and engine building. I couldn't find any real information or posts with any good opinons on this topic. I figure that if it was worth doing valve train companies would probably already be on top this.

But has anyone else wondered about this? What's your opinion? I figure we always need to think outside of the box  :scooter:

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Travis
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my63
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2014, 05:53:39 PM »

Simple answer....it depends on what your combo wants!
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161854
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2014, 05:34:08 PM »

   My63 is right. On a stock 5.0 GT cam a switch to a 1.7 rocker would normally pick the car up as it could use more cam . On some applications with bigger cams, ratio changes don't make a difference. In short , adding rocker ratio and improving from it shows you could use a bit more cam. Shortening the rocker ratio and improving tells you you "might have too much" cam. Some engines like a higher ratio on one side but not the other. A friend of mine's 2012 Corvette liked a 1.8 on the exhaust only but there was NO change when adding the 1.8 to the intake. No et, 60' or mph period. So he went back to all the stock rockers as a test and slowed down to where it ran before the exhaust rocker change. Next week he had the 1.8s back on the exhaust only and it ran faster like before. I have played with other engines that made more power with different ratio rockers on specific cylinders like the outboard cylinders (1,5,4,8 on a ford) but this is rare and usaully is done during dyno testing.
     Randy
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rmcomprandy
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2015, 09:42:07 PM »

  I'm always coming up with odd ball questions for myself when it comes to engine combinations and engine building. I couldn't find any real information or posts with any good opinons on this topic. I figure that if it was worth doing valve train companies would probably already be on top this.

But has anyone else wondered about this? What's your opinion? I figure we always need to think outside of the box  :scooter:


Dyno tuning my 414 Windsor for the Engine Masters contest this year we tested 3 different rocker ratios on the exhausts and three different rocker ratios on the intakes in all different combinations of all of them.
It DID make a small difference with some combinations, a LARGE difference in power with others and no change or lost power with still others.
We even tested different ratios on the cylinders fed by the different manifold planes of a 2 plane intake ... and yes, it did haves some merit, losing at one point but gaining at another. 
The wide RPM range we are required to run in that contest couldn't take any advantage of the specific improvements but, someone using a narrower RPM power range certainly could have.

Doing this dyno testing to get the absolute best rocker ratio combination for that particular set of circumstances and other parts within that whole combination takes a LOT of time and be aware that EVERY engine is and probably wants something different.
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Silverhatch
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« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2015, 03:43:51 PM »

Interesting topic. I guess the Engine Masters is over now. How did you do, rmcomprandy, and what was the engine combination you come up with? I was thinking of going to a 1.7 rocker from a 1.6 on our little 302 "P" headed play engine and according to the Dyno 2000 program I have it, won't help any. Retarding the cam helps more at the rpms we are turning. May try that. 
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rmcomprandy
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2015, 09:38:19 AM »

Interesting topic. I guess the Engine Masters is over now. How did you do, rmcomprandy, and what was the engine combination you come up with? I was thinking of going to a 1.7 rocker from a 1.6 on our little 302 "P" headed play engine and according to the Dyno 2000 program I have it, won't help any. Retarding the cam helps more at the rpms we are turning. May try that.

A LOT, (actually MOST), of this combination was dictated by rules;
Finished in 2nd place

414" Windsor stroker = 4.055" bore x 4.00" stroke 6.200" rod length; externally balanced rear

Custom Race Tec reverse dome pistons, (from Randy the "piston guy" on here),  11/1 compression ratio.
O.E.M. ring pack = 1.5mm x 1.5mm x 4mm

Edelbrock, (spec #60249), "Performer RPM" cylinder heads with "as produced" valve sizes.
Standard metal removal porting allowed; NO welding - NO filling of any kind - NO pushrod tubes.

Edelbrock (spec #7581), 2 plane, "Air Gap" manifold

4150 carb; no spacer of any kind, (.090" thick base gasket, maximum).

Hydraulic flat tappet lifters, (spec #832-16 Comp Cams), and valve train;
1.65/1 intake rocker ratio / 1.6/1 exhaust rocker ratio

Flat tappet cam, (spec Comp Cams regular cast iron core), any lobe profiles; must be chain driven.
Flat tappet, tight lash, solid lifter profiles = #7411 intake / #6285 exhaust; 111 separation
304/310 @.006" - 282/288 @.020" - 256/262 @.050" - 172/175 @.200"

NON-programmable DISTRIBUTOR ignition

O.E.M production oil pan

Crankshaft driven O.E.M. production water pump

548 lb/ft torque @ 4,400 RPM ... 580 horsepower @ 6,700 RPM

It is now for sale and will be displayed at the OHIO Ford SuperSwap meet, Thanksgiving weekend.
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www.rmcompetition.com

The finest in Custom Engine Building for all venues ...!
1(586)909-1591 ... fax 1(586)771-2930
Selling Parts & Supplies from companies I use.
Silverhatch
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2015, 01:20:11 PM »

Congratulations to you and those are some great numbers you guys did. I went on the hotrod.com website and clicked on the Engine masters tab at the top of the page and read about the competition. I read a section about you, I think, also. GREAT JOB!
 :thumbup:
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rmcomprandy
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 09:53:41 PM »

Congratulations to you and those are some great numbers you guys did. I went on the hotrod.com website and clicked on the Engine masters tab at the top of the page and read about the competition. I read a section about you, I think, also. GREAT JOB!
 :thumbup:

THANKS for the good words.
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www.rmcompetition.com

The finest in Custom Engine Building for all venues ...!
1(586)909-1591 ... fax 1(586)771-2930
Selling Parts & Supplies from companies I use.
Brent Clay
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2015, 07:12:44 AM »

Interesting topic. I guess the Engine Masters is over now. How did you do, rmcomprandy, and what was the engine combination you come up with? I was thinking of going to a 1.7 rocker from a 1.6 on our little 302 "P" headed play engine and according to the Dyno 2000 program I have it, won't help any. Retarding the cam helps more at the rpms we are turning. May try that.

A LOT, (actually MOST), of this combination was dictated by rules;
Finished in 2nd place

414" Windsor stroker = 4.055" bore x 4.00" stroke 6.200" rod length; externally balanced rear

Custom Race Tec reverse dome pistons, (from Randy the "piston guy" on here),  11/1 compression ratio.
O.E.M. ring pack = 1.5mm x 1.5mm x 4mm

Edelbrock, (spec #60249), "Performer RPM" cylinder heads with "as produced" valve sizes.
Standard metal removal porting allowed; NO welding - NO filling of any kind - NO pushrod tubes.

Edelbrock (spec #7581), 2 plane, "Air Gap" manifold

4150 carb; no spacer of any kind, (.090" thick base gasket, maximum).

Hydraulic flat tappet lifters, (spec #832-16 Comp Cams), and valve train;
1.65/1 intake rocker ratio / 1.6/1 exhaust rocker ratio

Flat tappet cam, (spec Comp Cams regular cast iron core), any lobe profiles; must be chain driven.
Flat tappet, tight lash, solid lifter profiles = #7411 intake / #6285 exhaust; 111 separation
304/310 @.006" - 282/288 @.020" - 256/262 @.050" - 172/175 @.200"

NON-programmable DISTRIBUTOR ignition

O.E.M production oil pan

Crankshaft driven O.E.M. production water pump

548 lb/ft torque @ 4,400 RPM ... 580 horsepower @ 6,700 RPM

It is now for sale and will be displayed at the OHIO Ford SuperSwap meet, Thanksgiving weekend.


That is very impressive giving the "low performing parts" used.  I cant believe you got Performer heads and intake to make that kind of power!  I tip my hat to you on that, that is not an easy task, even out of 414 cubic inches.

Brent
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rmcomprandy
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2015, 08:01:21 AM »


A LOT, (actually MOST), of this combination was dictated by rules;
Finished in 2nd place

414" Windsor stroker = 4.055" bore x 4.00" stroke 6.200" rod length; externally balanced rear

Custom Race Tec reverse dome pistons, (from Randy the "piston guy" on here),  11/1 compression ratio.
O.E.M. ring pack = 1.5mm x 1.5mm x 4mm

Edelbrock, (spec #60249), "Performer RPM" cylinder heads with "as produced" valve sizes.
Standard metal removal porting allowed; NO welding - NO filling of any kind - NO pushrod tubes.

Edelbrock (spec #7581), 2 plane, "Air Gap" manifold

4150 carb; no spacer of any kind, (.090" thick base gasket, maximum).

Hydraulic flat tappet lifters, (spec #832-16 Comp Cams), and valve train;
1.65/1 intake rocker ratio / 1.6/1 exhaust rocker ratio

Flat tappet cam, (spec Comp Cams regular cast iron core), any lobe profiles; must be chain driven.
Flat tappet, tight lash, solid lifter profiles = #7411 intake / #6285 exhaust; 111 separation
304/310 @.006" - 282/288 @.020" - 256/262 @.050" - 172/175 @.200"

NON-programmable DISTRIBUTOR ignition

O.E.M production oil pan

Crankshaft driven O.E.M. production water pump

548 lb/ft torque @ 4,400 RPM ... 580 horsepower @ 6,700 RPM

It is now for sale and will be displayed at the OHIO Ford SuperSwap meet, Thanksgiving weekend.


That is very impressive giving the "low performing parts" used.  I cant believe you got Performer heads and intake to make that kind of power!  I tip my hat to you on that, that is not an easy task, even out of 414 cubic inches.

Brent

Thanks Brent ...

This is something which most people don't seem to grasp ... what it could take.

It took a straight week on the dyno tuning & testing, changing 2 cams with all different installed intake centerlines of them, many rocker arms, getting the valve springs to have JUST ENOUGH pressure for control but, not to much to absorb any power, 5 different carburetors all tuned the best they could be to get the best one, even spark plug differences were measured along with 2 sets of legal headers for all those iterations.
There was almost a 100 horsepower gain, (from first installed on the dyno to when it was taken off), getting all the correct parts to work TOGETHER as it is the "combination" which matters most.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 08:47:16 AM by rmcomprandy » Logged
www.rmcompetition.com

The finest in Custom Engine Building for all venues ...!
1(586)909-1591 ... fax 1(586)771-2930
Selling Parts & Supplies from companies I use.
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